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| Back at the end of the 19th Century,they had more understanding of Truth than the "Believers" of the 21st. |
June 2, 1899.
(positiveathesim)
Link to Freely downloadable books by Robert G Ingersoll
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| Back at the end of the 19th Century,they had more understanding of Truth than the "Believers" of the 21st. |
Does that include the faith religion of atheism?
ReplyDeleteAnything which forces "Believers" to confront the illogicality of Blindly "Believing" any theology offered up as "Truth" without physical proof is a good thing.
ReplyDeleteAtheism therefore isn't a "Religion";it is a catch-all title to hang on those who demand proof before blind obeisance. That's just being sensible rather than Gulable.
There is plenty of proof that God exists in the created order of the physical world, but that's not good enough for you. But I get what your saying. You need God to get real personal with you first.
ReplyDeleteWhich "proof" are you referring to Whooli? I see plenty of "Theory" out there. But no actual proof i can hold,smell,taste,hear or see with my physical senses.
ReplyDeleteThere isn't any Order in the physical world. Look around you with unblinkered eyes and see just how much all of Our planet is in a constant staye of flux. How nature appears to allow evolution and change within all living organisms. Existance as governed within the framework of *Time* is all about states of change that defy the concept of "Order". Chaos is the natural state of the universe. And it is only by OUR own imposition of "Order" that order exists. However, Chaos will always find a way to reimpose itself if we lose focus. That's what i see around me every day. I don't need any concocted "Creator" getting "Personal" with me to understand what is real,and what isn't.
"There isn't any Order in the physical world." Really? Have you ever used a calender? Ever used mathematics? Ever used logic? Ever used measurements? Ever waited for the oceans tide? Ever watched a baby become an adult? Ever use language? Ever waited for the date of a solar eclipse? Ever watched the leaves of the trees change color every fall season? Ever heard music? Ever watched the seasons change year after year?
ReplyDeleteAll examples of Human-Imposed order as i previously stated.
ReplyDeleteWould the world care about dividing time into equal slices in order for it to function as an ecosphere if Humans didn't exist on it's surface?
Would the Sun care how it burns it's own hydrogen and shoots excess flares out into it's surroundings if Human eyes weren't devising instrumentation to observe it? Every natural event that takes place on our planet,when observed, happens whether we exist or not. That is not proof of any "Creator". That is just what *IS*.
All our history as a species,we have tried to comprehend the *why* of existance. And invented superstitions and religions to ascribe some sort of order to the chaos that surrounds us. For without order,reason and the enumeration of things, we are lost frightened Children out here in the cosmos. I fully understand the attraction and comfort that "Believing" in any Human created Religion affords it's adherents. But that sort of mass delusion just isn't for me i guess. I prefer to just observe and make up my mind about reality as I perceive it.
The order is here regardless. It doesn't need human beings here to see it. It is not "human-imposed" order.
ReplyDeleteThe order doesn't exist without Humanity being here to observe and quantify it. The rest of the Planet doesn't care about order. It'll continue to Grow,evolve and thrive quite nicely without it.
ReplyDelete"The order doesn't exist without Humanity being here to observe and quantify it." wow. If that's how you see this universe, you and I can only talk past each other on this subject.
ReplyDeleteI guess so. After all, we argue only from our own perceptions about what constitutes reality. You believe what you need to believe in order to function as an individual,just as I do.
ReplyDeleteThat is the essential truth of the Universe. Perception only applies to us all on an individual basis. And we *choose* whatever theological argument we feel makes the most sense to us.
But i still feel it is important to get alternative viewpoints about existence out there to be pondered. Just as I feel you are justified in upholding your own viewpoints to all. After all, we will all eventually learn who was right and who was wrong when we die,surely? ;)
...and i would like to add for the record that i am in NO hurry to find out for now! Lol
ReplyDeleteand....Schrödinger's Cat.
Best post ever foon1e. WHOOLI has obviously never listened to Ingersoll. Christian's are immovable but I have hope for some of them. It's funny though how they knock jews all day long while there own religion is just another branch of judaism. All about control. Christianity: follow jew god or go to hell.
ReplyDeleteHere is a good site for those who have an open mind.
http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/
I'm agnostic myself btw but I will never belief in that prick jew god.
ReplyDeleteI take it WHOOLI believes the creationism thing, and foon1e, u go the darwin route? why cant it be both? have u guys heard of intervention theory? Have u ever seen some of the late great Lloyd Pye's work? he picks apart the holes in both and goes tit for tat on the last 5 ELE's we've had in the last few billion years. how something comes along and cleans up w/in a few 100 1000 years and reseeds the place, clif high called them the Nemo
ReplyDelete"I prefer to just observe and make up my mind about reality as I perceive it."
ReplyDelete"Perception only applies to us all on an individual basis. And we *choose* whatever theological argument we feel makes the most sense to us."
so do u believe in objective truth? a truth that exists OUTSIDE your reality and its perceptions, ego, and consciousness...?
Yes, But don't forget CSS; A lot of the more "Fundamentalist" Christians believe that the fossil record is fake,and that mankind hasn't existed on earth for more than 11 thousand years or so.
ReplyDeleteThey're all too busy counting the seconds until the Rapture takes place,and all Biblical Prophesies have been fulfilled to care about dissenting views in the real world.
The only thing i can see is that the Christian "God" is supposed to be the same God (Yaaa-Waaaaay!!) The Jews and Muslims worship. That's enough to turn me off to the whole concept of Deities and Divinity.
When does Jesus return?
ReplyDeleteI am no fan of any Semitic religion, but I will say that Whooli has a point, most atheists just choose Marxism or mainstream scientific instutions as their religions, you know the people who believe that vaccines are good for you because they have faith in peer edited research papers.
ReplyDeleteDoes foon1e believe in "Justice"? One cannot hold,smell,taste,hear or see it. Yet no ordered society can exist without this concept. There are many such concepts that cannot be "proven", and yet they exist.
ReplyDeleteFoon1e is arguing positivism, which is essentially Judaism. They are the people of the flesh; people of the earth; people of the world. They abandoned any faith in concepts that cannot be proven with their senses, so justice is lost to them and they know only power. The Jews are faithless, which is why the Church said they were perfidious.
Ultimately, faithless people cannot be trusted because they don't believe in anything.
I'm not saying that foon1e is a Jew, but if he keeps this up, his nose will grow and he will become rich.
Here's another gem from foo1e: "hold,smell,taste,hear or see with my physical senses." Huh? What about DNA? Or Fibonacci?
The order found everywhere in creation is proof of a prime mover. Things left to their own devices fall into disorder. This seems to be true, except when people invent ridiculous theories like evolution, or the big bang, or whatever Jewish fantasy of a Godless world.
Christopher Marlowe said...
ReplyDelete"The order found everywhere in creation is proof of a prime mover."
In REALITY that should actually read...
"The order found everywhere in NATURE is proof that NATURE is more complex than most distracted minds can comprehend."
It most certainly ISN'T "proof" that any outside force is involved at all! I'm sure though that "believers" certainly "believe" in a different interpretation of the word "proof" than I.
NATURE does not need man to explain its complexity by theorizing that some mythical higher being "created" it. And it certainly doesn't need you to "believe" in something you can never prove exists or for you to try and disprove that men just made it all up to use as a control mechanism over other men's minds. In other words NATURE couldn't give 2 fudgecakes what you believe about how or why it exists - it just exists and always will in one form or another - and it's probably safe to say that at least some men will continue to dream up unprovable theories about why as long as man exists.
You have never had any "proof" that a "prime mover" "created" NATURE and I don't think for a second you ever will. "Believe" what you want - I prefer to learn, grow, think and know, and what I most certainly know is that I will never "believe" in your completely unprovable "prime mover"! I also reject and laugh at all your silly little labels for non-believers like "athiest" et al but hey, whatever floats your ark...
No CM. I don't believe in a tenuous concept like "Justice" - which is yet another man-made construct which doesn't actually exist in the natural World around us. Hanging a Label on a theoretical concept doesn't actually make it "Real". But all religious types have done that ever since the first caveman conjured up the first supernatural explanation for elemental behaviour.
ReplyDeleteJust like i don't "Believe" in your unprovable statements about "Prime Movers".
Your snidely accusatory remarks about my being Jewish for holding the views i do about the world around me are contemptible CM. That's like me reminding people that the god of the Christians is actually the god of the Jews, and yet that's a fact. You "Worship" YaaaWaaay, or however it's spelt.And you purportedly worship his earthly offspring who existed to birth a race of sheep:all prepared to turn the other cheek and meekly wait to inherit the earth...or be slaughtered by those who hold different mass delusions to your own.
So, in the final analysis, who is ostensibly more "Jewish"? Me, for rejecting every tenant of what Judaism created for the purpose of enslaving the minds of non-jews? Or You, for slavishly following what the Jews gave you?
I am at peace with my world-view. You need to inspect the origins and consequences of yours more thoroughly.
Itza Joos said: "NATURE does not need man to explain its complexity by theorizing that some mythical higher being "created" it."
ReplyDeleteBut IJ needs to learn the difference between contradiction and refutation. I wrote that the laws of physics show that everything runs downhill. Systems break down. Rooms get dirty. Girlfriends get fat. This is what we see in nature. Always. But when the atheists want a fairy tale creation, they invent big bangness and evolution, which are contrary to this LAW. All of a sudden, random things BUILD UP systems rather than break them down. In this fairy tale world, I should be able to leave my dirty room and it would sort itself out over time.
Every thing is caused by something else. This is what we see everywhere. That is why Aristotle said there was a prime mover, which had no cause, and which created everything. That is logic. This love of reason is what caused the great pagan philosophers, Socrates, Plato and Aristotle, to believe in God.
Sorry foon1e, I was just making a joke. I don't think you are a Jew. But positivism is indeed Jewish, and the positivist debate is at the center of the Jewish rejection of God.
ReplyDeleteI'm not just "hanging a label" on a philosophical concept, your statements are casebook positivism.
Further, if you don't believe in justice, then why do you every complain about anything or even post on this site? Why don't you just go do whatever you want? Because you are not willing to take your stated beliefs to their logical consequences.
Truly you do belief is justice, but you are not clear on how to achieve it.
I will ignore your statements concerning the origins and philosophy of Christianity because your have been severely misinformed by a Jew that I am not allowed to criticize on on Mami's because he has some special status.
@ Marlowe
ReplyDeleteThe concept of physics and nature do not run downhill In fact it is in a cycle of life and death you are born, grow up, age, then die. This cycle is found almost everywhere in the natural world in all animals, plants and micro organisms with the exception of some jellyfish and lobster in which some species have been able to regenerate their aging and dying cells.
Now I'm not denying that there is a possibility of a God or a creator, but you have no proof that it is the one in the bible. Why do you also assume that someone who doesn't believe in Christianity, must believe in evolution or the big bang?
In the briefest way possible, describe what you think are the roots of Christianity and provide some sources as I always keep an open mind
CM. I have already learn't the futility of attempting to engage here with any "Believer" such as yourself. It never ends well, because talking to walls is pretty much a waste of time.
ReplyDeleteAll you are doing *IS* hanging Labels On concepts you appear to have no real grasp of intellectually. But that sort of disembling is typical of Christians trying to wriggle out from under the logical fallicies of their belief system.
Furthermore, I don't have to believe or agree with the Legally defined frameworks that the Jews have given us through enforcing religious and Judicial Law down through the ages.
I live by one essential tennant: Do unto others as you would have them do unto yourself. My own conscience and inate sense of what is Right and wrong governs my behaviour. Anything else outside that is none of my concern. I certainly do not need any jews preaching at me from down the ages as to how to live my life.
The origins and philosophies of Christianity are well understood around here. You worship the Jew God. No amount of of Ignoring that essential Truth will change it's veracity.
And one final statement about the owners and admins here at Mami's. Not one of them is Jewish. So please stop with your attempting to smear us. It doesn't endear us to your continued presence within these comments sections.
"You worship the Jew God. No amount of of Ignoring that essential Truth will change it's veracity."
ReplyDeleteJehovah is not the "Jew God". The God known as Jehovah is the eternal,self contained triune, uncreated creator of the universe. He is everybody's God. That includes foone. Jews are a very small part of His creation. He has brought Divine judgement on the jews many times. Jesus is Jehovah. The Old and New Testaments are not Jew or Christian books. They are Jehovah's Revelation of himself and the things that he chose to reveal. So much for the origins and philosophies of Christianity being well understood around Mami's.
Sorry Whooli. Your own cultural brainwashing on the subject blinds you to the truth about *ALL* Abrahamic religions:
ReplyDeleteJehovah /dʒɨˈhoʊvə/ is a Latinization of the Hebrew יְהֹוָה, a vocalization of the Tetragrammaton יהוה (YHWH), the proper name of the God of Israel in the Hebrew Bible, which has also been transcribed as "Yahweh".[1]
יְהֹוָה appears 6,518 times in the traditional Masoretic Text, in addition to 305 instances of יֱהֹוִה (Jehovih).[2] The earliest available Latin text to use a vocalization similar to Jehovah dates from the 13th century.[3]
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You,CM and every Other Christian who accepts the Bible as "The Word of God", and JC as his *Son* are worshipping the very same monothiestic God as the jews do.
Wake up man! You were lied to!
God is triune. The Great one and the many are ultimatly equal in God. This is also reflected in His creation. Study the history of the philosophical problem of the one and the many. Jesus is the second person of the Holy Trinity, God The Son.
ReplyDeleteAs i commented before. Brick walls do not good debates make. If you're determined to continue to worship Jewish Lies given to you 2000 years ago as truth. So be it. But, anyone objectively studying the iniquities of the Jew,or trying to get the truth about Jews out to the wider world knows that you need to distance yourself from those lies to keep their taint away from yourself. There's so much evidence out there about what Christianity was given to you "Believers" for it isn't funny. A "Slave" religion is all it's ever been. Starting from a Jewish Cult - it grew like a cancer once non-jews had been baptised into it's ranks. But before that, it was purely Jewish in origin and outlook.
ReplyDelete( http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/new-testament/the-origin-of-christianity/ )
No amount of revisionism can alter that fact. Jews *gave* you Christianity for a reason. And it wasn't a benign one. The sheer number of Christians who still today support and believe Jew lies is staggering. And finding them on this Blog is disappointing.
Well said foon1e and praise to Rober G. Ingersoll.
ReplyDelete